EPISODE 4: Encore or Exit - Go Out on Top (Or Don’t Go Out at All)

Episode four of Cross‑Eyed Bear starts awkwardly (as it should) and quickly spirals into a wide‑ranging debate about artists, bands, filmmakers, and TV shows that either quit too soon—or stubbornly refused to quit at all. Tristan and Chris bounce from Nine Inch Nails to Duran Duran, Donnie Darko, The Office, and everything in between, dissecting reinvention, burnout, legacy, and the fine line between artistic integrity and chasing the paycheck. Hot takes, cult favorites, mild heresy, and the eternal question: do great artists know when to walk away, or does someone need to pull the plug for them?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This it's always awkward to start.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Well you just start it in the middle. Or at the beginning rather, actually. Isn't that Tolkien and Lord of the Rings?

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Yeah, exactly. You just start at some far off time. Eventually everybody will catch up. Yeah. You just take a walk down a road and here we go. The gunslinger, the gunslinger chase the man in black through the desert.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Across.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Across the desert. It's been a lot of it's been a long time for me.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Have you ever heard of the Dark Tower series by Stephen King?

unknown 0:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

It's it's a great one if you haven't.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Alright, we're gonna kick this off because I gotta get into it. This is episode four with Cross-eyed Bear. Tristan and Chris here, and we've got I don't know what we were talking about. Oh the topic for today, the topic de jure, was the artists that probably hung it up too soon, and the ones that probably should have. Real quick on the Dark Tower. He told me that he went out after our podcast and bought the audiobooks, of course, to the entire series, which I was like, oof, well, you know, clear yourself out a few weeks there, because that's gotta be what, like 60, 80 hours of audiobook, maybe more.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Is he gonna listen to them all? Or do you think he did that just to pay fan service because he clearly is kind of obsessed with this and us?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Well, I mean, we're easy to be obsessed with, so I'm not surprised. That's a good point. But I do think he intends to at least start it. It is it is definitely. I remember, like I said, I did Wizard in Glass, and that one alone I think was 16 hours. Just that one book.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

10 hours of reading and six hours I'm wondering why you were wasting your time reading.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

The back half of that it really picks up.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Sure. Great. All other books in the series, excellent, and I definitely will re reread probably most of them again, except Wizard and Glass.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

I am about due for a reread. It's been a couple years since I finished and a lot of years since I started.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, I'm looking forward to us making our adaptation, or in lieu of that, seeing who they cast that is clearly secondary and nowhere near as good as the cast that we assembled. But regardless, I'm excited to see it on screen and handled with care. Agreed. With the topic today, you know, you kind of prompted me for it a couple days ago, but I thought that we were just literally looking at music as it regards artists who maybe didn't have as long of a career and do everything that they could have, or since I'm antagonistic ones that should have hung it up a long time ago. But today you gave the wrinkle a film. And so I will tell you I've not had enough time to think about this. However, I've got one that I will probably spend the majority of my time talking about. Okay. But I would love to hear your music thoughts first.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah. So where this actually started was a comment you made, I don't know, whenever whenever I was out of the country. For all of our fans in Ashburn, Virginia. I just took a sabbatical out to Australia. It's a beautiful, beautiful place. For everybody local, you've already heard. So gotta shout them out. There's like four of them. Of course. So what really like made me think about this was you sent a message to a few of us about nine-inch noise and how Trent Reznor just keeps getting better and better. And I I completely agree. But it's also being posited as his last tour or last run of live performances. And I was thinking, he's on top right now. He is truly couldn't be doing better with nine-inch nails than he's doing right at this moment. Is this the time to like truly hang it up and go out before you go too long and just ruin everything you've built?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

I mean, with a lot of artists, the answer would be yes, but the thing about him is that he's reinvented himself. To you know, you look at nine-inch noise and what he's done, bringing his wife in. And obviously they'd worked on the project before, but bringing that into what he's been doing recently with Boys Noise and the way Nine Inch Nails kind of metamorphosed with Boy Noise's unique production quality, you know, which certainly was kind of the the what the genesis of that was the work they did on the Tron Airy soundtrack, which Boys Noise worked on, of course. And then Boys Noise remixed this the Challenger soundtrack, which of course Reznor and Atticris Ross did, which was awesome. Awesome. In my opinion, that movie, which got a lot of accolades. If it hadn't been for Zendaya and the soundtrack, I don't think it would have been half the movie. And in equal portions, by the way. That soundtrack drove that movie. But he keeps reinventing himself. I mean, he's even done it when it was just when he brought Atticus in, but even kind of before that, he'd started to do it. So I don't want him to go out on, I don't want him to go out on top because it keeps changing. The people who need to go out on top are the people who clearly aren't changing themselves. But Trent keeps doing that.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

He he does. And I'm not suggesting he like disappears into obscurity. Like clearly, he's got a very thriving like score soundscape thing going with uh Atticus Ross, and it's like, let that continue. Let keep pumping out these amazing movie scores. I think the biggest wrinkle for that is the fact that he did Tron Ares under the Nine Inch Nails moniker, he didn't do it as Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross, and it's the first score that they put out as Nine Inch Nails. So is there a good point? Yeah, is that like where this is going now? It's like they're gonna just start scoring as Nine Inch Nails, or is this when you close the book on Nine Inch Nails and evolve more into these soundscapes with Atticus Ross and maybe who uh Boys Noise and whoever else he wants to work with? Because really anybody would work with him at this point, of course.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

It's a really good point, and I've not given it nearly enough thought. I obviously that was intentional, whether it was Trent and Atticus's decision to do that as nine-inch nails, and it was like a really good marketing buildup for the tour that they had that was on the way, yeah. Or if it was Disney cutting a big fat paycheck and saying we'll take all the money on the film and even more money also on the soundtrack, but we need nine-inch nails because we know that will drive additional sales. And in which case, that's a fun, fun, dark, and twisted path to ask. Did Trent sell out and to the the greater mouse of capitalism? I don't know. It's a fun question, right? I'm gonna not go down that path because I prefer to think of Trent as a purist. So I'm gonna say it was just to have a little bit of capitalistic outcome by promoting the tour that they had. But maybe so when was the last time 90 nails toured though before before the the Peel of Black Tour?

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Oof. It was long enough ago to where I missed it and was convinced it was that was that was it and I missed it. But I it was shit. I want to say like 20 I'd say 2010 to 2016. I could be way off on that.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

I mean, maybe this was the I I think it's been a minute. I think it's been a while. Maybe this was Trent's way to try and insulate a little bit extra to guarantee that there was renewed interest and vigor and reminding, like, oh, nine inch nails, you know. Yeah. Either way, it's been successful. I mean, as you and I both know, we've we saw it and it was incredible. Right, and that's kind of where I was the concert.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah, yeah. That's and I I hearken back to that as well. I think about it. And the planning that went into that was that was a stage performance that I've like never experienced. I mean, I don't know, I'm sure you know, all I think we're up to like 30 listeners now. I don't know how many of them got to see this. You saw it twice. Three stages set up very strategically across this big open expansive space. You walk in, it's just like ambient, low bass, just really like it it was a soundscape kind of running with just red lights everywhere. Fog Machine never stopped, so it always looked really eerie and smoky. It was it was so thought out optically that it it felt I don't know, it almost felt like it had some finality to it because it was just like I'm putting everything into this.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

I mean they had a literal curtain go down on it, but I don't know, and he did even say that he would uh keep doing the scoring, so he's not just hanging it up, but I don't know, man. The response to this nine-inch noise thing has been pretty strong. Oh, it's because it's so good, it's so good. Okay, so Trent Atticus, Boys Noise, his wife's name, Mariqueen, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yes, it's it's it's a weird name. I can never really remember it.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Wow, why is it weird? Just because it's different than Tristan?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Why do you have to be like that? So they should not go out. I think they should keep doing stuff. But who who do you think should go out, or who do you think didn't get enough time to develop it from a music standpoint?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Oh my gosh. So easy answer. The pr This has always been controversial. People get mad at me. I have said it before, I'll say it again, and now I'm officially recorded on record. Oh boy. The red hot chili peppers should have pulled the plug in like 2003.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Like, I this is gonna here we go. Here's I'm just gonna fucking say it. Go. The best thing that ever happened to Sublime is that Bradley Noel passed. They are etched. I know, I know, that's fucked up to say you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Think about it, but it's fucked up.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

His songs are etched in just history, they're iconic. Same thing with Kirk Cobain and Nirvana, they weren't able to record more. Their their work is what it is, and it's all good. If they'd have released Californication and stopped, I think that they'd be amazing. But they just keep churning out. I truly like with the amount of talent in that group, it's just like I can't believe it's such trash. That's a perfect call. Like, there's nobody in that group that's not crazy talented, and then they it's just but I'm like it's just too much. Yeah, like I'm so I don't want to hear Anthony Keita sing anymore. No, and another one I feel bad for saying this, because I think that they should keep touring, but they need to stop releasing music, is actually near and dear to my heart, Duran Duran.

unknown 12:04

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I I'm thankfully I've not listened to any of their music post 2000.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh my god, do you talk about a guy that evolved with Trent Reznor? Like Simon LeBon has not he's Duran Duran sounds exactly the same with the song they released literally, I think the 23rd of this month as they did when they released like Hungry Uck.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Credit, and obviously we saw that concert as well, and so I heard some of these songs, but thankfully I was able to ignore them with the weird, crazy Euro horror video imagery that looked like it also cost a hundred dollars to make that was pulsating behind them. So fortunately, I was able to be distracted.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

It was so good though. That that uh that the video behind them was so good.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

It was so awful, it was, but so bad that it was good. It wasn't it was like a he can still do it. Please understand, I had such a great time at that concert, but I had it because of listening to them perform all the songs that I knew. But you are correct, yes, they should have stopped making music.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, I'm not saying stop touring.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

No, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Simon LeBon is a gem, and I would gladly see him again, but it's just unnecessary. Like, who are you drawing in with these songs? Are you hoping to get some like junior high kid to like your your new Duran Duran hit and he's suddenly gonna be a fan? It's like no, like my mom doesn't need new Duran Duran, and that's your bass. It's a good call.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

So the one that I had, because I wanted to be just antagonistic and and say all the bands that I can't stand who are like that, who keep making music. Yeah. Not that I can't that I can't stand the fact that they're still making new music, but I want to try to go the other way to be positive or something. Yes, yes, and think of someone who didn't have enough time. And for me, I always think about Nick Drake in that conversation. Okay. Are you familiar? Yeah. So you know me, and this will be a good segue at some point. Being a big film guy, and his music is used. Like anytime you've got like a romantic comedy, especially that leans a little bit more drama, Nick Drake's on there.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

And the music are just perfect. The the the cues, music cues are perfect always. His songs are so we're so great at telling a story. Dude did not get nearly enough time to make music, and I don't think gets enough credit for what he did.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah, agreed. Because I mean, that's another one that outside of movie soundtracks is kind of in obscurity. I feel that way about are you familiar with the swell season?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

That sounds familiar, but it's not ringing, no.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

It's it was a guy and a girl. I can't remember if it's husband-wife or not. They'd fit really nicely with like Iron and Wine or the Shins or like groups like that that are I know that this one's gonna eat at you, but I'd I'd say like if they were on a bill with like Bonny Vare, like it would make sense. I know. Yes. Anyway, yeah, I know that's that's not your guy. No, but a little bit higher energy than that. It's not quite as like just ambient and depressing, but they're they're very good. And they released a couple solid albums and then just like disappeared. And I I hate that because you're like and in some ways now they're etched and well, you know, it's like we were just saying, like they've done what they've done and it's great. But I'm like, come on, guys, like I need that vibe sometimes, and I don't want to just keep listening to the same couple albums.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah, it's I'll have to check out, but you have me very nervous now when you mention anytime you mention Bonnie Vare, everything within a 10-foot radius all of a sudden becomes sullied and and bad.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

I never understand like the the dislike towards him this viscerally.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I don't know. It's weird with me. You know it's a thing. You mentioned Nirvana, and I've been trying to hold myself back. I've been trying. I was waiting for it. I know you did that intentionally, just trying to bait me. And congratulations, hook, line, and sinker. You look at I'm sorry, you look at a Dave Grohl and all the things and all the evil and pestilence that that man has brought to humanity with his god-awful music, quote unquote, and the fact that he has wasted such great talents as like Taylor Hawkins, who actually was an outstanding drummer. And well, that's all I have to say about that, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I I know you feel that way about Dave Grohl. I've very much on a different page. I've always viewed him as a music theorist. He he still records analog, he doesn't record digital. I he bought like an old, about to be defunct board from a studio that was about to get bulldozed, and I I I love that stuff. Do you know the that has nothing to do with his music, that's just his ear for music.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

You know that the way that the devil makes its way into your soul is through sweet, beautiful sounding things that look pure and noble, but in fact are rotten and tainted, in which he threads truth into his lies. You know this, yes? You've read the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, of course, cover to cover, very studiously. Good. So have you ever heard the whole thing about Maroon 5 and making a deal with the devil? No, but now I'm intrigued. It's it's just silly, but it was this whole thing where like they made a deal with the devil to become like famous, but they'll like the the downside of it is they'll never actually like really reach superstardom, they'll all just just be kind of in this low-level mediocrity where they're everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

But what a perfect Faustian bargain. Another great example, by the way. You look at it, like I remember back in college, it's Song of Songs About Jane, right? Yeah, that album's fantastic, in my opinion. Yeah, it was fantastic, and then everything after it happened.

unknown 18:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

That's because they made the deal and they were never able to ascend. They were able to just, I wouldn't even say maintain, like omnipresent, but never good. It's just, I feel like you go into any gas station, liquor store, never good grocery store, maybe a happy hour that's full of few blue hairs. There's, you know, you're gonna have some Rune Five playing.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Okay, this is making me think about another album that I think came out right around the same time. And an artist that I think I do want more of. And that's I mean, they've they've had strong enough output, but I think I want more yeah yeah yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

You know they released something recently for The Gorge. It was Oh, did they? No. It I don't know if it was expressly for The Gorge, but the Gorge used, yeah. Used the opening track in in the movie, in the trailer, all that. But the album itself is excellent. It's only it's only eight songs.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I'm ashamed to admit I haven't I mean I've seen the movie, but I'm unless in Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

It's it's eight songs and it's just she Carano did so good with it. Like obviously they're a group, they're they did it together. But it it they went weird with that was it Mosquito? Yes. I agree. Between Fever to Tell and Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Show your bones. So that's where it happened.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

It splits honestly one of the coolest recording stories I think I've heard in a long time. If you're unfamiliar, I'll fill you in. But it's more along that kind of energy, like really a little bit more dramatic, synth-heavy, and just she's got a lot of reverb on the vocals, so there's a lot of like there's some echoing and things going on. It's just very cool. It's a it's good.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

So thinking about Carno, weirdly enough, probably the song I've listened to the most with her or the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is crazy. Actually, no, it's not the most because what's the Heads Will Roll. That's the one I've listened to the most. But number two, and you might not recognize it, in the movie Her, you know, Spike Jones's film, Joaquin Phoenix, Scarlett Johansson plays AI very prescient before its time, you know, like what, 10, 12, 15 years ago. Give it another watch if you haven't seen that film in a while. But the film that plays in the Denouement, which Scarlett Johansson's AI character created, is this song called The Moonsong, which on the soundtrack both has a recording by Scarlett Johansson, which is excellent. She's a great singer, she has a great voice, but the you know, the actual music artist one is done by Karen O. Okay. And it's uh just a fantastic track.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I'm gonna have to find that one because that one's that one's new to me. I've not heard it. It split. So back to that. Did you ever like some asshole's gonna fact check me and I'm gonna be wrong, but I don't care. This is the truth. Whatever. They recorded that like with a bunch. Old like 80s synths and things like that. It was a very, very synth-heavy album. In a barn just during the winter. Like they basically like recorded it just like in a defunct barn. Which it it just has this obviously this really weird energy to it the whole way through. Like it starts out I'm that album just starts out great. Oh god, it's been too long. I'm like, what's the fucking title track? Not the title track, the opening track. But uh Zero. Zero. Yeah. I can hear the synth line going in my head, and I just couldn't put it together. But I always love when groups find interesting places or ways to record music. Because they just bring this little piece of where they're recording into their album. And that one was a weird album, and I think it has a little bit, if not a lot, to do with the fact that like they're just in. I mean, I I I don't know if this is true, but I picture it cold, I picture it snowing, and I just picture them like in a circle with just like synthesizers and a drum set and just amps everywhere and just trying to bang out this masterpiece that they ended up putting together.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

I'm alright, I'm gonna have to look into it. No, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

One of our one of our people will fact check me and tell me I'm wrong. Yes. Which, whatever. Bring it on. I live my truth. That's the truth. That's that's the truth I choose to believe. Don't ruin a good story with the truth. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Should we talk some more about music or should we talk about some some films?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

No, I actually like this this was supposed to be just all encapsulating of art. I mean, it's easy with music because there's it's really easy to compartmentalize musicians. Like obviously, a band plays as a band, and so their start and end is rarely, there's basically gravestones to it. But when it comes to like cinema or TV and acting and things like that, when they're in different roles and different directors and different movies, it it's harder to kind of label that like should they hung it up? But I I am really fascinated to talk about it because, like I was telling you earlier, when it comes to TV shows, especially, I love a show that knows when to end it. And there's too many that just wait till they get canceled.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Or aren't going to be canceled but also keep going too long, like I'm sorry to say Friends, which yeah, like any good millennial as I am, I loved that show.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

The Office is the other one.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Oh god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Like the fact that nobody clued in that, like I get it. Like, you can't assume that Steve Carell was the heartbeat of that show, but it was pretty clear that he was the heartbeat of that show.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yes. I mean, don't get me wrong, I loved Jim and Pam. I loved that whole dynamic, loved it. Pretty much every other storyline could take or leave, especially as it went along. And Andy and Ed Helms in general just drives me absolutely fucking nuts. But yeah, like once Steve Corell left, I mean, maybe one season so that the Jim and Pam heads can have their story wrapped up in a nice pretty bow, but that's it.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah, but there weren't any other plot lines that were like so crucial that they needed to keep it going. Like you're right. Like they but they got married. They got married when Michael Scott was still around. They could have ended it. Did they? Yeah, because he was at the wedding. They got married at Niagara Falls.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Duh, that's right, of course. And the did the uh the the song the dance to Chris Brown's song that was that whole wedding trend that was popular at the time. No, you're right, and he was there. Duh.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

So they could have ended it with yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

They could have ended it right there. Just NBC Universal needing a couple extra bucks. Capitalism.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

It's uh just to so much detriment, though. Yeah. Like there was The Office, and then there were the last seasons of The Office. It's just two different things completely. Sorry for all of our listeners that prefer the Ricky Gervaise version. Fair. Whoever you might be. Fair.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

I'm sure there's plenty. Any other TV shows that you had?

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I mean, I think Matt Groening's a genius, but I also like does the Simpsons still need to be on?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

No. Like it's insane to think that that show has been on since I've been like, what, six years old? Harrowing to think about.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I feel like last time I checked it was like 30 years, but I feel like that was some years ago. It's longer. Yeah, oh no. I know that. I don't remember when last time I looked. Hey, I was trying to, you know, could have just leaned into that. I'm in my 20s. Yeah, of course. Of course. Sorry. Yeah. No, but I mean Yeah, maybe that one just needs to be done. But Larry David in both of his shows went out on his terms. People hated the ending of Seinfeld. I completely disagree. I mean, I feel like they were terrible people, everybody on that, on that show. And the fact that they ended it in jail, spoiler alert. It was terrible. I liked, I liked it. But it was still, no matter what, terrible or not, Larry David was like, I'm done. Like, this is this is it. Like, we're done with Seinfeld and moving on. He did the same thing with Curb. He was like, I'm done with Kerbier enthusiasm. This is the last season. We're gonna do it right, and I'm out.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

I like the idea of it ending in a weird way and not resolving anything, but at the same time, like doing it the way they did it in jail was clearly just to be antagonistic.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, it was a giant middle finger.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

But they but they they knew it. They're like, we need we keep this can't keep going on forever. We can't we just have to make a call. This is it, we're done, move on. And it's just a self-awareness that doesn't really exist as long as there's dollar signs around. Like it takes I don't know, it takes some cojones to just be like, no, I don't want your fat check for my wildly successful show, and just be like, I the longer I ride it, the worse it's gonna get, and I'm not gonna continue.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Do you think you'd be able to maintain artistic integrity and turn down a fat check from the NBC Universals, the Paramounts, the Disneys, if you knew that the time had come, whether making music, making a show, whatever, would you be able to turn it down? Me? Yeah, absolutely fucking not.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

I am not even. Yeah. That I think is why I have so much respect for everybody that can, because no. If I if they were just like, yeah, you know, there's there's still money attached. I think you can come up with a few good ideas. I'd be like, you know what? I probably could.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

You know, I can honestly say, and I will say this honestly, since my wife isn't listening to this yet, but eventually she'll get into it, listen to this, and be like, she'll start screaming at me. Okay. That'll be fun. I would turn it down if I'd reached a place where I had like a generation or two after me that I knew that through thoughtful investing could keep living a good life.

unknown 30:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

And I would enjoy the hell out of retiring away right then.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

I feel like I'd need to have something lined up, especially when it comes to like like when it comes to cinema and TV, I would take the money because I don't know, maybe it's hubris, maybe it's just because I like nice things. But when it comes to music, I truly feel like people just don't know how to shut it off. And they will always want to write and they will always want to record, and they'll always want to continue to release this to the world, you know, for better or for worse, Simon.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

It's the good, it's the question though, who in those are actually doing it because of artistic expression and the need to let out something which is within them? And who is doing it just because they feel that they're obligated to do it, or certainly the worst case scenario that man, they love that Almighty Buck and the 20,000 square foot mansions in the hills?

SPEAKER_01 31:11

I think you can tell them literally just by the music they're releasing. First off, a lot of these artists that are just they keep pumping out stuff are doing it on their own label. So, like they're making money, but it's not like they're being obligated to do anything. They're doing it because they want to pump something out. Like, there's a there's a hip-hop artist, uh, Aesop Rock. Sure, huge fan, and it makes me insane because that guy just literally records because he wants to record. He refuses to tour. He's released, I think, in the last like four years, like six or seven albums, and they're all good. And he refuses to tour. He's just like, no, I don't, it's like I I'm 40, 45, 46 years old. I don't want to be on the road. I just want to write music and release it. And so it's like artists like that where you're like, yeah, you're doing it because you love it. You're not doing it because you're trying to make money. Because if you're trying to make money, you'd be on the road.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

It's truth. A lot of money in those tours.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, that's that's the bulk of it, right? I mean, I've I don't know the actual stat. Could probably look it up, but it's like what they make off of a record versus what they make off of a tour. It's just like the records just to make sure that they can get a tour. Because that's not where the money is, it's not in the album.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Yes. Merchandise slash the tour.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

I have a burning need to talk about one film director.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Let's let it fly.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

It's it's something I have to let my thing, artistic, and expression inside of me out here and not make any money off of it. Immediately to my mind, when I was able to think that that film could be an option in this, I immediately thought of Richard Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Do you know that is?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

You're gonna school me because I do not.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Okay. Picture the year 1999, post-9-11, very weird time in our society, especially for artistic expression. And a little movie called Donnie Darko comes out by a brand new first-time filmmaker.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

I'm sorry, I feel so stupid. I know you shouldn't. He was the director? Yes. I don't okay. You gotta fill me in on what else he did or did he? Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

This is why he's perfect for this.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

He only made two other films. He does not still, to my knowledge, nothing that I've seen, and I'd looked up his IMDB just to make sure, still making anything. So I don't know what he's doing at this point. But he makes Donnie Darko, and for those of you listening, if you have not seen this gem of a film, you need to watch it. If you want to talk about cult movies, it is the cult movie I would argue of the last 25-30 years, at least one of the with a capital T. You know, introducing Jake Gyllenhall to the world, introducing Maggie Gyllenhaal, who's become a very good director in her own right, even though the bride obviously was absolutely lambasted, introducing Seth Rogan to the world in a very small role, bringing back Patrick Swayze in a fun cameo, Noah Wiley, who obviously is on top of the world again with the pit, Drew Barrymore with those those classic haunting words of cellar door, right? And of course, to make it full circle, the music of Duran Duran and an amazing soundtrack in general.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Cheers for fears, big one too.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

So you don't know this, I think, about me.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Head over heels is my favorite song of all time. Yeah, I didn't know that. And I loved it, and it was one of my favorite songs before, but then when it was in that steady cam tracking montage that was in the high school hallway and playing over it, I mean, gold. I could watch that scene a hundred times in a row.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

No, it's that was that was one of those just the soundtrack was just so perfectly and masterfully built in. Oh, here we go. So as a lover of the movie and the soundtrack, what is the opening song in Donnie Darko?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

So they have two different openings.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

That's why I was asking. I was curious what your purist, if you're a purist, what is it?

SPEAKER_00 35:51

I always do think Echo of Echo and the Bunny Man. The killing movie. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Every time.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

I did not know, and obviously you filled me in, but I did not know that they had licensing issues and had to make multiple versions of that. Yep. And Steph puts it on one night, and I'm geared up because like there's no better opening track for that entire movie than Killing Moon. Absolutely agreed. And it doesn't start playing. Yep. And I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? What is this? I was like, yeah, what are we watching? Like, this is I've seen Donnie Darko. This is not how it starts. Because it was another good song, but it's just like in it, it's lost on me right now.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

It was it's lost on me too, because all I can never hear is Echo and the Bunnymen.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, because that's the track. Like honestly, that's what got me into the band. I'm sure I'm not alone there.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Actually, same. I had not heard them before. I'm ashamed to admit.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

No, it don't be, because likewise I love them.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

But he replaced it with just Never Tear Us Apart by In Excess.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, and it's just like there's nothing wrong with that song. It's it's good, but it doesn't fit in the same way.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

It doesn't, I agree. In excess, perfectly fine, man. I've been I enjoy in excess, but yes, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah, there's no but it for anybody that's seen the movie, and I'm assuming most people have at this point, came out somehow. I don't know, man. Is it that obscure still? I think it's somewhat obscure. So for that, anybody that's seen that movie, he's just riding his bike. Jake Dylan Hall is riding his bike through the hills, through the neighborhood, he's riding home. And the pacing on it is like it just fits the song so perfectly. And it sets it up because it's a just a very it's it's dark, it's a dark movie. But in like thematically it fit. Never tear us apart.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

It just it really felt like a cop out. So for those who haven't seen Donnie Darko, you gotta watch it. For those who haven't seen it in a few years, you gotta watch it. But what Richard Kelly did next was what led to the downfall. So Donnie Darko obviously gets a lot of buzz, builds a lot of cachet for Richard Kelly. People are people are in, you know, growing, growing groups, people in. So he gets some Hollywood budget for the next film, and he promptly makes the film Southland Tales. Have you ever seen this?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

I have not. I'm like, like, do I want to, or is this something to stay away from?

SPEAKER_00 38:55

You need to. You need to. And it's not fair that he got taken down because of this, because there's a perfect analog, and the dude, who's the director who made Lala Land? What's the cat's name again?

SPEAKER_01 39:10

You keep talking, I'll figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Okay. I'm gonna I'll connect this once you remind me of his name. But you look at Southland Tales. Richard Kelly makes this movie crazy, conspiracy theory, LA, bringing together all different kinds of his ideas about modern pop culture and modern mythology, assembles a cast that is absolutely bonkers, and especially at the time, because a lot of these people were in their prime, or right at the ascent of Dwayne Johnson, Sarah Michelle Geller, Sean William Scott. I mean, I need to pull up Justin Timberlake, Janine Garofalo. I mean, it had all kinds of crazy random ass people.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

And it's just wild. There's a lot of ideas that come together that are out there without without any cohesion. And it's just all big spectacle. And the reason I say the cat with Lala Land, what was his name again? Damien Chazelle. Damien Chazelle. Ugh. Yes, thank you. You know, he makes Lala Land, which obviously is abhorrent and just a tragic, awful disaster, as everyone agrees, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah, okay, cool. And gets a lot of budget for some reason to make Babylon, which, like what Richard Kelly did with Southland Tales, big nonsensical mess with a lot of ideas that does not have any cohesion, nor does it come together. And yet somehow he keeps being able to make movies and is discussed as an atur. I don't know why. After Southland Tales with Richard Kelly, from there, he does get one other film.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

But it was not promoted, released on a very modest budget, made on a modest budget, etc. But actually a good flick. And if you've not seen the film The Box, I think I have. With Cameron Diaz, James Morrison, Franklin Jella, you need to check it. Yeah. Y'all need to check it out if you haven't. It's a good taught thriller. And since then, and that was made in 2009, nothing. So I know dude has filmmaking in his blood. I know that he wants to make films. And so, since obviously Mr. Spielberg listens to this, as we know, yeah, Steve, Richard Kelly clearly idolizes you. Like you can tell in the way he makes films that he grew up on your stuff and wants to make films like you do and did. Give my guy, be an EP for him, let him have some time to develop something, bring him back out of obscurity, and let him come back into the light. Because he's got talent and he did not have enough opportunity to make his films.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yeah, if if he's capped out at three, that just doesn't feel like enough time to develop any kind of anything, really. No. Like, look back at some of these amazing directors, second and third movie. Like Peter Jackson. What was that fucking ghost movie he made? Like with Michael J. Fox. Yeah. Oh, good grief. The Frighteners. Yeah. It wasn't that it was bad. It was just like it's a fun film. It's fun, but it was so hokey, and it's nothing like he's doing now.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

And you're just if anyone wants to have fun and does not know Peter Jackson's origin, dig into his IMDB. Because my guy was not always making charming Hobbit films.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

No. And it is when you think of like the Frighteners compared to compared to Lord of the Rings, very, very, very different scope, very different everything. You wouldn't, I wouldn't have even expected it to be the same director.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Well, it's it's the Frighteners got him more into mainstream, Michael J. Fox, etc. But the main reason why that helped is the special effects for that film. And that was good special effects, especially considering they had a pretty modest budget to work with on that. And you look at like a new line, and knowing Bob Shea to have been a dude that definitely watched wanted to do cool stuff, yeah, but always hired directors more on the cheap who had as artistic visual flair and could get it done cheap. You look at all the nightmare films. And the cats making them. And that was that was his modus operandi throughout it. Interestingly enough, by the way, Peter Jackson wrote a treatment for Nightmare Four or Five that he wanted to make.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

And they just said no.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah. I mean, it came down to his, and I think it was, I think it was Dream Child. And they ended up going with, I can never remember the director's name. They ended up going with his, but Peter Jackson rolled screen play wanted to do it all anyway. But you look at that being what Bombshe did, no doubt he saw the Frighteners, no doubt he saw what Peter Jackson did with the special effects of that, and thought, I can get this guy. And also, having had previous relationship with him, from talking about and being pitched a nightmare treatment, which Peter Jackson would have pitched to Bob Shea.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

And like, I can get this dude to make my Lord of the Rings, make these Lord of the Rings epics and do it a lot cheaper than someone else would have done.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

And it clearly worked. But yeah, you look back at Peter Jackson and oh my God. You look at watch brain dead and bad taste. And anyone, anyone who hasn't seen some of these and does not have a sensitive stomach, I suggest them.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

And that's like that's kind of what I'm getting at. Like he was not Peter Jackson. Yeah. Like he had to, he, he took some time to get there. And it's such a shame that it Richard Kelly wasn't, he made such an amaz amazing movie, not really given a chance to develop.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

He was given too much money too soon.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Because you look at Peter Jackson's actually a really, really, really good analog here. Because you look at it and he had to really work and work and work and work. And once he got his moment, he had enough experience, wisdom, time in the industry, and age to where he knew he wasn't jaded, but he also knew what it was and how to avoid the pitfalls that were all around him waiting.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

So to back on the maybe should have hung it up thing. Love him, obviously, Peter Jackson. But he you didn't need to do three movies for the Hobbit. Just gonna say it.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

I could not agree more.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

It's depressing.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

That's all I'm gonna say about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Those Hobbit films were terrible.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

They were they're terrible. They should have been one. You could have done an extended cut, made it three hours, that'd be fine. But you made nine hours of what, like a 200-page book.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

And it's such a great story, too. It is dude. I grew up. Have you ever seen the weird animated ones from the 70s? I have, but it's been a it's when I was young, so it's been a lot of years.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Dude, that's killer. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Yeah, I remember liking them, but I just it's been the Lord of the Rings one is e it's a little weaker because obviously they had to condense way too much to make that one. But the Hobbit was perfect.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah, it's perfect. It's a it's a quick 200, 200, 250 pages. You knock it out in a couple hours, you're you're made in the shade.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

And now, of course, they're making the the hunt for Gollum and McKellen's back, and Andy Sirkis. I mean, I'll at least say Andy Circus is directing it, which I think is cool, and that's great. And I love he's back as Golem and he's directing it, which I love. I love Andy Circus.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

As do I that guy, he's one of those he's in so many things and just not given the credit. Dude's very legit. So good.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Yes. But I mean, they're making this thing, and why? No, exactly. It's cash. I'm sorry, it's cash. Because what story do you have to tell?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Well, God, fucking Game of Thrones, same thing. Like, stop it.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I digress.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Indeed. So Richard Kelly was one for me, and then one other for me to close it out for film, and would be Michelle Gondry.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Okay, help me out here.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

So make some of the most inventive music videos of the 90s, and especially from a technical standpoint, technical special effects standpoint, especially like blocking and tracking. But of course, you know one of my favorite artists, Chibo Mato, made the music video to Sugar Water, the aforementioned godless bringer of despair and pestilence that will eventually end humanity, Dave Grohl. Yeah. But actually, the one song that there's I actually kind of dig everlong. Yeah. He did the music video to that with all the homage to Evil Dead 2. Did the music video to uh Kylie Minogue Coming to My World, which is an amazing music video.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

I won't have to see.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Did a handful of Bjork's music videos, Chemical Brothers did all kinds of great stuff, and then starts to get his moment in film, and his real big breakout is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Which was fucking great.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Which was fucking great.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

But was that it for him?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

No. So he made a couple, he's made a couple of things, and he's still working. He's still working today, but at this point, Hollywood has basically cast him out, and he's pretty much just making like French films, to my knowledge. He makes a couple of films, including Beekind Berlin. Okay, which is a great one. Have you seen that one? Yeah. It was uh Great Flick with Jack Black and uh Most F. Great one. But he makes the the remake of the Green Hornet.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

And then it all just comes crumbling down.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

And before we're told that we should have hung it up, I think this is where we end it. Yeah. Yeah.